I can only share one thing that annoys me as far as 'fantard abuse,' and that's the Heavy/Medic bug. This is just my opinion, and I try not to get irritated when I see it, but it's difficult not to get my jimmies rustled a tad when I see it in every other story I read, porn or not.

Mind, the only reason I've come to dislike the pairing is only for that reason. It's the default relationship; even Valve has played into it with the wigs. I'm not saying 'down with heavy/medic,' just down with putting it in stories when the story could be told without it. I feel the same with Sniper/Spy.

Just, if you're going to put a heavy/medic//sniper/spy relationship in a story, at least give that relationship a reason for being there. Don't just plug it into the story as excuse romance. (The Nucleus Incident, while I love it a lot, is a good example of this. I believe the story could still have been told well without those two sleeping together.)

Again though, my personal pet peeve.

>>9652
I don't see Heavy as dumb either, but I tend to characterize him as easily amused. Like a kid who's in accelerated classes in school, but gets home and watches Adult Swim and YouTube Poops.

>>9656
this. regardless of the fact that i'm not a huge fan of those pairings in the first place, i feel they're used for filler. e.g., if the focus of the story is an actual plot involving all the characters, i'll see a background heavy/medic in there for the sake of being there. i've seen really quality stories that have lost points in my book for excessively adding those pairings that they could've gone perfectly without.

>>9660
I think (this is regardless of fandom) that some writers think they're obligated in any fanfic to add pairings or porn. They don't have to.

Although if anyone has suggestions for good pairing-less fic, lemme know.

>>9659
Easily amused is fine. Makes sense for me as well, but not like the type of guy who has to be read bedtime stories and makes messy crayon drawings.

>>9656
>wigs
I've always gotten the impression that the wigs are just there to be silly. I fail to see all the subtext behind them, but some people get all upset over them, which is weird.

I do wholeheartedly agree with everything else you've (and others) have said. I'm not really a fan of romance in general, and it gets kind of hard to read a story (no matter how otherwise good) when there's an awkwardly placed couple necking in the background constantly. Same with sex too. It shouldn't be there unless necessary, and if it is necessary, you don't need to tell every detail (unless it's porn, then, by all means, go all out).

>>9662
I'll admit I went through a phase like that as a teenager. I think it's because romantic subplots and stories are shoved into pretty much everything nowadays, so it's inescapable. They're not always bad, but most of the time they're unnecessary.

>>9656
I don't like this, either, though it's hard to mind if it's a pairing that's really unusual. For example - Demoman and Spy. Hurrrng, dat. But then I start wanting to see more of that pairing, not the actual story, so I guess it still takes away from it in a way.

But, yeah. On a whole, I try to stay away from this trope because... Well, before I found a special SOMEONE, I was pretty anti-romance, and while I'm a lot better than I was before, I still think it should only be save for special occasions. In my opinion, if romance has become a boring trope in your story, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Most of my major pet peeves have already been mentioned by the others, so here's a milder one: It disappoints me that most writers seem to think that "maggot" is the only insult Soldier has at his disposal. If you look up his in-game quotes you'll see that most of them are surprisingly long-winded and creative, and some of his unused ones are even more so.

>>9668
Really? Well, I'll have to give that a looksies.

One thing that I don't HATE, but don't like either is big-fluffy-panda Heavy who's just a big soft cushie of love and happy and sweet and marshmallow fluff.

Even though his official description reads, word for word, "Like a hibernating bear, the Heavy appears to be a gentle giant. Also like a bear, confusing his deliberate, sleepy demeanor with gentleness will get you ripped limb from limb. Though he speaks simply and moves with an economy of energy that's often confused with napping, the Heavy isn't dumb; he's not your big friend and he generally wishes you'd just shut up before he has to make you shut up."

Now, don't get me wrong. The gentle giant trope is my FAVORITE characterization ever. It's just not for Heavy. I don't see him being needlessly aggressive, either - it's just that people tend to abuse Gentle Giant Heavy more (so that it's easier for him to bunk up with someone - usually Medic, sometimes Scout, other times a Sue).

I myself have trouble deciding how much good Heavy is too much good Heavy, but c'mon, people! At least there's effort there!

Not exactly fantarded, but I do not like it when people use the word "boy" to describe Scout. I'm cool with the other characters calling him one, but when the narration refers to him as such it rubs me the wrong way. This appearing in adult fanfiction is the worst offense because then I see Scout as underage and that just ain't right.

>>9676
To me, "boy" is what I'd call a man if they weren't mature in attitude. You can be fifty years old, and still be acting like a boy if you're playing fart jokes and such. To me, Scout is a boy in terms like that. I wouldn't have a problem with it so much in dialogue... to the other characters, Scout <i>would</i> be a boy. In narration, I'd feel very different about the term, because he's not a boy in age, so much as in... attitude? demeanor? something like that.

>>9678
This is how I see it, also. And, as a writer, sometimes it's just a lot... easier to just fall back and say "the boy" this or "the kid" that. Just because I hate using terms like "the young man" (which would be something I might call a Spy or Engineer if they were the same age) or "the teen" (purely aesthetic).

TL;DR, I tend to call Scout a boy in my narrations, too, but, as Rhian said, mainly because of his attitude than his age, and also to cut down on repetitive phrases. Oh, and because I like using it more than other, similar terms.

>>9668
Oh God, Soldier's lines are pure unbridled genius. I would be terrified to try to write him.

>>9672
Along this same route, I have issues with some characterizations of Heavy as well. Now, anything is funny once, and hell, I will read anything once, if it's written well. But there's a pattern I am starting to see that makes me wanna toss my cookies. And that's Housewife Heavy. You've read it... A story that's Heavy/Medic centric where Medic still acts like a man, which is good, but Heavy acts like some kind of gigantic Russian Carebear who wants nothing more than leetle house with white picket fence, with Doktor and leetle children (?!) running about. ...Um, it's all fine and good to have romance in your fics. I LOVE the pairing for the pure romance that some amazing writers have come out with. But. I can't stand when a character, ANY CHARACTER, gets castrated...and god, to see Heavy put in the role of Domestic Wifey Extraordinaire... Like I said, if it's played for laughs, then anything is funny once. But I've been noticing more and more that this is starting to become fanon and that alarms me. LOOK AT THE MAN. Does THAT look like 50's HOUSEWIFE TO YOU?!

...I thought not.

I know I'm late to the party on this one but I'll say it anyway: it drives me nuts when artists are so afraid of creating a Sue that they don't make their genderbends pretty at all. They can be proportional, small-chested, what-have-you, but the looming threat of criticism prevents them from making a somewhat facially aesthetic female. Nature DOES make pretty women and it makes them quite frequently. Just because they're cold-blooded doesn't mean they have to look like a pug.

>>9681

Maybe that's the joke?

I mean it's not like a juxtaposition of his size with a domestic life could be played for subtle laughs or anything, amirite?

>>9683
Like I said, played for laughs I can understand, subtle or not. I mean, it's funny. And done well, it can be cute. God knows I love romance as much as the next red-blooded female out there. The thing that bugs me is when there's no balance, where you never see any backbone to Heavy, just lapdog. It just rings so false to me, is all.

Cat, please don't think I'm talking about your Reunion Heavy with this. I'm not. YOU play it up with the humor, and Heavy has enough darkish humor of his own, as well as sharp words for Soldier, that I enjoy the juxtaposition immensely. But not everyone has your light touch and sense of humor.

Everytime i see in fics or art spy or medic talking in their native tongue to the team it makes me angry. Honestly, if someone french comes over you and start adding oui or mon ami everywhere, you'll just think he s'stupid.
For the heavy it kind of makes sense cause he don't speak a nice english.
But seriously, as a frenchie, i came to scotland during the holidays and i never ever started to speak french at the middle of my sentences cause that would just have been weird. Accent is okay, cause you can't hide it...

>>9973
Uh, dude? Medic and Spy talk like that in the game itself. Spy occasionally spouts random foreign phrases ("amigo", "non", "oui", "prego", "très bon") and Medic constantly replaces English words with German ones ("nein", "danke", "dummkopf!", "horrido", "jawohl", "schnell", "schweinhund", "nichts da", "raus", etc).

>>9973
Maybe Spy is proud of his country, and chooses to flaunt it?

I mean hell, even when I speak French, I occasionally through my little Canadian 'eh' in there, and other Canadianisms. It's how I talk, and I'm proud of it.
Maybe Spy and Medic are, too. Maybe it helps them to retain some bit of their culture in this place where they are now. Maybe that's important to them.

My captcha is laybrar and for some reason I think of Engie.

Well...I think common spy who is effeminate, not trusted by teammates, always sadistic and quite costumed to fagginess in fanfics isn't my type.
Aw, comeone. he can be quite friendly with his teammates since they're team. Even if it's scout. If each others are enemy, they should kill each, but they're in same team, you know.


And scout pretends to be normal almost always as if he is saying "I'm alone a normal and not mentally illed person in this place. not like you!".
And is weak, a kid, and deffenselessly gets abused.
Whenever I play medic, however, a scout almost seems to be a monster. Whereever I try to run away from him, its almost impossible to escape.
There's a big gap between fanfic's scout and game's scout.

>>9995
Game scout is an attention whore with a massive ego. So yeah.

It bugs me when Scout's skin is described as "pale" or "creamy". Just... What? Have you even seen the game model?

Also, RED Spy being rude and snide towards his own team feels a little odd. He's pretty civil towards them in the game itself (save for the occasional insult if they lose) and the comics have him treating Soldier the same way a parent would treat a kid with an overactive imagination.

>>10003
>>> and the comics have him treating Soldier the same way a parent would treat a kid with an overactive imagination.

I agree with your entire post, I just found that additional comment giggle-worthy.

As far as my peeves go, I'm just sick of seeing ineffectual Scout. The same goes for all the skinnier classes, but Scout seems to get the most amount of "oh, he's a new kiddo and he's so skinny and small; must be very weak" treatment in fiction. At least Medic/Spy/Sniper are shown holding their own or being agressors more often than not, and speaking of...
Not that it's guaranteably a poor plot device (and plenty of people have complained about this), but sadist/Nazi!Medic, creeper/rapist!Sniper and most-of-the-above!Spy stories just irk me somehow. I don't really know why, I've seen well-written stories with these types of characters, but they'll lose points in my books most of the time because those three characters will be written off as one-dimentional monsters. Plus, as someone who does like the classes overall, it's just cringe-worthy to see them act so unforgivably, you know?

Teddy bear heavy also annoys me. As does the fact that engie's generally either portrayed as a sweet ol' country boy or a horrible human being comparable with the types of Sniper/Spy/Medic I described above. As far as I can tell, those are two extremes of his personality.

tl;dr: I don't like exaggeration of certain characteristics of the characters, in favor for ignoring several other characteristics of said characters. It tends to make for one-dimentional stories.

When people single out Heavy, Soldier, Scout, or any other class as "the one all the dumb people play". Newbies choose whatever class they like best, and I've seen my share of dumb [every class in the game].

I cut people some slack if they're dumb sometimes. TF2 was my first FPS, and I still have no idea what I'm doing sometimes, a year later.

Am I the only one who looks at this image and thinks, "Child Abuse"? It squicks me in all the wrong ways.

>>10084
Ugh, you're definitely not alone. That tiny little thing barely looks 13 even with those ridiculous water balloon boobs.

>>10085

Agreed. Also, why is that phone off the hook? More disturbing implications...

>>10084

...Wha?

I just... I mean... That can't...

What the fuck IS this?

I have just died a little. That does NOT look like somebody at least over 18 years old.

>>10086

>>10085
>>10086
>>10090
>>10091

Literally, first thing that went through my head was "Why is BLU Engie raping his daughter?!?" It only came to me later that this is supposed to be the Scout. Ugh. And this was posted as if it was supposed to be HOT. I hate humanity now.

Well the Engineer is from Texas, So if he marries her it's legal.

Eugh, this thread has started to distress me. I can't say I find the picture all that disturbing because it's just porn and there's always worse, but now I can't look at it without being weirded out.

I hate it when people go on internet forums and call other people fantards when those people are just trying to get their jollies just like everyone else, and find it so important that they be dissociated with those people.

I find this entire thread to be in bad taste and I'm genuinely surprised it's gotten such a positive reaction from an otherwise welcoming and accepting community. I usually ignore what I don't like but I thought it would be in the spirit of the thread to post.

A friendly reminder of what I said before:

Participants in this thread are to play nice or I will send their ass home. It's a shame I have to even say this, but people like to get defensive and whiny about the things people may post here. If you see something in this thread that offends you, take deep breaths and think before giving a retort, if at all.

Don't even get started guys, I'm not joking. You are welcome to express your peeves but turn this into a debate and I will lock it and ban all offending parties.

>>9178

Can someone explain to me what exactly I'm looking at?

>>10084
Aww man now you guys make me feel bad for thinking this is actually hot.

>>9178
I haven't laughed that hard in years.

>>9192
This is more of what I expect of fem pyro. The rest really do pass me off.

>>10084 I know men who get off on this sort of thing. They have a genuine Loli complex. It's so creepy. I think they only like small girls so their dicks will look bigger.
This is actually turning into one of my biggest pet peeves about the fandom. The super kawaii uguuu girls that people insert as fem-(subject class goes here).
I guess I try to think logically, like, if I were out there fighting like these guys, would I really wear a skirt? Would I really wear a short skirt? The answer (for me) is NO. Heck NO.
Nor would I wear a belly shirt, or high heels, or a corset. I like some of the pinups that people do (theres a really great fem soldier pinup somewhere on the internet) but the thing is, they are pinups. A pinup girl wouldn't be fighting.
These guys have muscle, they bleed and sweat and kill. The women should match.

>>10116
Pardon me, it's 'Piss" not 'Pass'. My bad.

Her face doesn't look that young to me, but then again, I know a lot of people who look much younger than they are. Faces don't always match up with relative age. And for all we know, the artist's a younger woman who gets off on older men, not the other way around.

>>10085
if this girl have 17 years old, these boobs are very big for her age.(sorry if i'm wrong) I said that because in 60's "chickens with hormones" didn't exist. Now, it's normal to see a girl with that age and water balloon boob.

Oh look, it's this argument again.

Can we just stop where we are now and save everyone the future aggravation? Everyone has their own ideas on what sorts of things are acceptable for femclasses. These sorts of things ALWAYS go in circles.

And that is my contribution for the fantard abuse thread!

My least favorite thing to see is people taking pairings seriously, like getting upset if someone doesn't like their preferred ship. While this bothers me in any fandom, it really confuses me with this one, since at the core of it, we're really just shipping a bunch of psychotic, mostly-middled-aged mercenaries.

>>10122
That's the problem I have with threads like these. The entire thing devolves into gratuitous backpatting and circlejerking and anyone who has even a slightly different opinion gets run over by the mob. Legitimate discussion never comes out of threads that are inherently about bashing other people's likes and preferences. You can rationalize it all you want via her boobs are too big and her face is too young etc etc but in the end it doesn't matter. These threads promote groupthink and insularity and everyone who posts in it with a positive opinion perpetuates that.

Even worse, even a mod has given a seal of approval and threatens to ban anyone who disagrees. This was supposed to be a welcoming community about having fun and doing things that you like, not random lynching of people that have different turn-ons.

Who the hell said I gave this thread my seal of approval, Serain? From the beginning I knew people, such as YOU, would bitch about something like this. My first post said to play nice and that was directed at BOTH sides. Some people like stuff that other people don't like. Some people don't like stuff other people like. And if they can act like mature adults, then I'll let them talk about it. That's being a welcoming community isn't it? I've pointed out stuff in this thread that I've disagreed with without attacking someone for it. It's when people start getting BITCHY that I'll lay down my ban hammer. And if this is about the Nazi thread before, you must not have seen many discussions about Nazis that when smoothly without leaving a lot of butthurt in it's wake.

So what is it? Do we welcome differing opinions and share what we both like and dislike or do we say "No! You're not allowed to talk about what you like or dislike! People will feel excluded!"

Goddamn, you guys. If you disagree with something, you can say it, but there is no need for snide passive aggressive attacks. That is as much of a problem as people being open in their expression. So you have to make a decision: Am I as a mod going to have to not allow people to talk about these things anymore? Am I to ban everyone who expresses an opinion? Because I can start that if that's what you guys want me to do. After you guys give me an answer, this thread is being locked.

Can this thread stick around a little longer? It's one of my favourites because it has so many varying opinions. Even if people do argue a lot it is one of the most intreaguing things for me.

Did we just hit Godwin's law, or is that coming up yet?

There is one great change we could collectively do to improve the conversations happening in this thread. We need to review logical fallacies, particularly the fallacy of sweeping generalization, straw men, and ad hominem attacks. The closer we stick to laws of logic, the less likely we are going to make emotional appeals and thus upset others when the wrong emotions are struck. Debate can result in fascinating revelations and the occasional change in perspective. It's to this end that we should explain why we respond negatively to certain repeated stimuli.

Shall we have a sample argument? Let's review the image in >>10084. Aesthetics aside, this image bothers me because it looks like a young woman is being raped because of team color choices and her pained expression. If we want to get redundant, we could view my reasoning as the following: I don't like crime. Rape is a crime. Therefore, I don't like rape.

Furthermore, it bothers me that there is a phone off the hook in this image. To me, this implies that there is somebody else on the line listening to this rape occurring. Is it a member of this Engineer's team? The woman's team? The Administrator? What are they feeling about this, and are they going to do anything to help this young lady? There is tension with this situation that is unresolved, adding to my further unease.

It's not the case that I haven't written or dealt with sexual assault as a theme before. However, when I wrote about it, it was perceived by the victims as a confusing, terrifying event. It was not meant to stimulate arousal. Horror was my goal, and how I met that is up to the reader of my story. What is the purpose of this image? If it is to stimulate arousal, it did quite the opposite for me. That is why I look on this image with disgust and not amusement. To me, it's not a sexual image. It's criminal evidence.

Let's agree. Let's disagree. But most importantly, let's debate each other with an even temper. A diamond is the most valuable when it is properly cut. Let's be the same with our opinions and arguments.

>>10124
Let me start off by saying that I am completely unironically and unsarcastically pleased that you thought I would bitch and I am glad I have that sort of reputation. This is my method of disagreeing out in the open, and directly challenging. I don't think there's anything passive-aggressive about it. I'm using my name because I believe in taking responsibility for what I post. Unless I'm drunk off my ass and vaguely shouting obscenities.

What I am saying is that this thread should have been closed down from the very first post because the OP made it clear that it was not a respectful disagreement thread or about 'we all have our dislikes but in the end we will not judge anyone' thread. It's a thread about having fun at other people's expense who actually like those sorts of things, and those are a lot of people and yes, even people who visit this site. By not closing down the thread immediately, the backpatting was allowed to continue and consequently, the minority opinion was overrun, and new levels of double standards were achieved and I can point out several examples of all three. My problem is that it was clear that this was going to happen from the start, especially if the OP is name-calling from the very first sentence that is typed on the thread ("Fantards"). I'm okay with rational argument. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree. But this thread is not either of those things: It's a circlejerk filled with people who are making rationalizations for their dislike, when these rationalizations do not matter in the first place. (Though for the record I completely agree with closing down the Nazi thread. Some lines should not be crossed.)

The only other way I could allow for it to exist is if rules were clearly outlined and enforced with the purpose of achieving polite discussion and the betterment of the community. This never could have been that kind of thread, a thread for people to 'act like adults' when from the first post it was nothing but sarcasm, name-calling, and emotionally charged terminology. And I don't think anyone is delusional enough to believe that those kinds of posts don't alienate people.

That's all I have to say, and I am glad that this is getting closed down.

Friendly neighborhood Admin stepping in.

I'm going to be frank and say a couple things to everyone. Get the fuck along, get over the butthurt, no your ass will not be patted, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you are NOT entitled to be making ad hominems and needlessly attacking other people over their opinions.

This thread allowed people to express their opinions and have frank discussions over those opinions civilly. However, a few of you decided the thread was in the wrong because someone, somewhere might have their delicate sensibilities hurt. Grow up, be the bigger person and pull up your pants and get over it. For fuck sakes.

Also, there's a rule that has seemed to have been forgotten.

Rule 8: Do not create drama. See a post you dislike? You have three options:
a. If it breaks the rules, click the tick-box next to the poster’s name, scroll to the bottom of the page, type a reason in the "Reason" field and then click the "Report" button. Do not respond to it.
b. If it does not break the rules but offends your delicate sensibilities, ignore it.
c. Calm yourself down. Take a deep breath, count to 10, release. Go for a walk if you need to - just don't post stupidly in response to it.

If it helps, I can make a new thread with a less contentious title. Yes, as the OP, I have been trying to stay out of this, but If I changed "Fantard" to "Fanon", would that be better?

And Serain, I get that not everyone feels the same about certain kinks. I get upset about rape and Child abuse. The sarcasm was an attempt to be funny about the specter of pregnancy among genderbent classes. It was not an attempt to go "Oh, look at these people, they SO HORRIBLE!" I admit to having a problem with tone, I am a bit Asperger's, so I don't always get tone, either in myself or others. I am trying to get better about it, but I don't always think about how what I am saying comes across.Sometimes, I don't get it until much, much later. Sometimes, I don't get it at all.

Not trying to excuse myself, just to explain.

>>10142

Really the only problem I see is maybe the use of "Fantard". Otherwise, there's nothing being said in the actual content of the OP and the rest of the thread in it's entirety that suggests one group of fans are better than another. If anything it just shows the diversity with all fans. The culture of TF2chan has shifted and it's obvious to me that it's users are not the callous assholes people keep thinking they are. In fact, I have more faith in TF2chan users than I do in other websites. And really, people shouldn't be taking something someone said on the internet not specifically directed at them so personally. It's really okay. No one has been trying to make anyone out as being inferior, just not sharing one's personal taste.

So yeah, I'll close this thread now, but someone is welcome to start a similar one again. You guys were doing fine as far as I can see, even if I disagreed with some of the things being said, nothing ever felt like an outright attack against anything except the concepts.